[jeh]

part of my future setup will require an optical cable. looking at partsexpress.com i noticed they range anywhere from $3.00 to $25 for a 3' cable. is this type of technology one that can vary in quality or are they all pretty much the same?

[DeathRay64]

Ok, no one has responded to this question yet with their expert opinion, so I will give you my completely non expert opinion.

You can decide if it is worth listening to and others who may be more informed can shoot me down.

I say NO, I don't think that it makes any difference because:

1) its digital, so shielding is unecessary and the connectors are standardized.

2) its digital, so either the data gets there or it doesn't. If it gets there, you're golden. It can't be changed by anything.

But this is from a guy who thinks that Monster cables is the biggest ripoff since ebay TV projector box plans. Sure a quality cable is necessary in analog, but huge prices for absolute overkill in cable design is just wrong and just prays on our desire to have the best.

[Movieguy128]

Quote

I say NO, I don't think that it makes any difference because:

1) its digital, so shielding is unecessary and the connectors are standardized.

Connectors are standardized, but the material they are made of isn't and how they are constructed isn't either. That's like saying "Cars are standardized." Does a Vette=Jeep=Geo? Yea, they all have 4 tires, breaks, and an engine, but they are hardly equivalent.

Quote

2) its digital, so either the data gets there or it doesn't. If it gets there, you're golden. It can't be changed by anything.

Not by a long shot. The way the light flows through the fiber and is reflected off the internal jacket shielding matters. Discrepancies in signal can be introduced based on the materials the interconnect was manufactured with. Jitter is something that one will see a lot of discussion about.

Instead of going further, I'll point folks to a discussion on Jitter on the DIYaudio thread. This question and discussion are probably more appropriate over there anyway.

Jitter Discussion

Bottom line: Yes, there is a difference in cables and depending on your ear, you may notice the difference if you compare two different cables side by side.

[DeathRay64]

Sorry, I don't buy it. From reading the thread, there is no conscensus on this other than coax is better. They speak of the possibility of a cheaper or improper length cable introducing jitter but no one can actually hear it. There is a possibility that error correction may have to work harder but they concede that the sound in the end is the same.

Possibly you can show me in that discussion where it is said that the quality of Toslink cables can make a significant difference(much less "by a long shot").

Like I said, I am far from an expert, but the experts that you pointed me to don't seem to be as convinced as you are.

While I will agree that there can always be a difference in the quality of the materials used, I am not convinced that it makes any difference at all in the final result.

My intention here is not to confront you, rather it is to have a friendly disagreement. Possibly some others can chime in on this subject who have a more informed opinion than I.

[Movieguy128]

There is a finite time for error correction to take place in order to be transmitted correctly down the pathway so that the speakers can reproduce the sound in time. The fact that jitter exists is well documented and not ALL the "experts" you cite agree with it not being able to be heard. After all, if the signal can not be "fixed" within the amount of time required to get it to the speakers to keep the flow steady, then it is lost or defaulted to an inapproprate value which is passed along.

This all applies in the world of computer networking as well - but then again, you probably wouldn't believe that cables there make a difference there either. Again, far too much to discuss, but it's safe to say that there are MANY folks who disagree with your opinion - me just being one of them. I don't plan on getting in to the same debate here that the DIY folks did over there as I doubt anything I (or any other person) says would convince you otherwise.

[Super_Bob]

IMHO i'm with deathray on this one, especially with optical (it differs slightly with analogue). at the other end of the optical cable you will either get the whole thing or you will get the whole thing or you will get fragments. If you are gettting fragments then the sound will just cut, it will not degrade (if by jittering you mean very clostly spaced cutting out of sound then we actually agree ). Depending on what is being sent though depends on how much of a delay you can incur to deal with error correction usually about to about half a second you can get away with which is actually a lot of time for that sort of thing. anyway long rant short try the $3 cable if it does the job then use it, if it doesnt, go for the higher one. The same i feel goes for analgoue cables though with varying degrees, i've never used anything more than bell wire for speakers and standard inter connectors, for the most part any sound quality loss i get is either in the speakers on in the hifi itself. most interfearence that people talk about or that advertisers blab about can only actaully be seen on an occilascope after several hours of carefull setting up and comparison.

[JaceMan]

Super_Bob, on Sep 11 2004, 07:56 AM, said:

anyway long rant short try the $3 cable if it does the job then use it, if it doesnt, go for the higher one.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm quite sure that $25 cable might be superior to the $3 cable. But before I spent 833% of the $3 purchase price on the higher end cable I think I'd be more apt to open the wallet and pull out three George Washingtons and see if I was pleased with the results.

It would have to be a pretty extreme difference to justify the higher priced cable IMHO. Jeh, JaceMan recommends purchasing the $3 cable and unless you hate the end result, keep it and use the extra $22 to purchase a new DVD to use with your projector.

[Movieguy128]

Quote

i've never used anything more than bell wire for speakers and standard inter connectors, for the most part any sound quality loss i get is either in the speakers on in the hifi itself. most interfearence that people talk about or that advertisers blab about can only actaully be seen on an occilascope after several hours of carefull setting up and comparison.

Bell wire? You're joking, right? There's a HUGE difference between wire types and yes, it CAN be heard - it isn't just on an oscilloscope as you claim. If you've never tried using high end interconnects on your system (or anything other than "bell wire"), how can you claim that you can't tell any difference???

BTW, I never claimed that the $3 interconnect wouldn't work - and that wasn't the question - the question was if there was a difference. There is. Folks don't have to believe it, but beliefs don't change the facts of the matter. Go audition some "bell wire" speaker or cheapie RCA/Toslink interconnects at a high end stereo store and then compare the sound on the same equipment in the same room by just changing the cables. THAT'S a true comparison.

To be honest, there's really no point in trying to discuss this further here. A question was posed. Both sides have spoken. Neither will convince the other. It is really better suited toward an audiophile site anyway. Seems like the decision has been made. "Discussion" is irrelevant now.

[Brett]

In my humble opinion, there is a difference, but one that I doubt you can hear.

The problem lies in the fact that the sample clock must be recovered from the digital signal. Most likely, some place there's an analog phase lock loop (PLL) that consists of a voltage controlled oscillator and some sort of feedback network to compute the frequency error. The output of the PLL is the sample clock that's used for clocking input data, and a division of the PLL is used for the digital to analog convertor (DAC).

The output of the PLL will never be perfectly steady. It will never hit the sample clock perfectly, but will osciallate slightly up and down around the proper place. How much it drifts and how fast it drifts depends on your feedback network. The designer of the PLL will have to pick among speed of lock vs. drift.

Here's my argument. If the sample clock drifts, the samples come out at the wrong time, distorting the analog waveform by a very small amount. However, when the signal was sampled in the first place, it had to be quantized. It's already distored in a similar maner. The two types of distorion are not related, and therefore should add non-choerently. Thusly, it shouldn't matter.

That's my uninformed opinion

Brett

[Super_Bob]

Movieguy128, on Sep 11 2004, 06:27 PM, said:

Quote

i've never used anything more than bell wire for speakers and standard inter connectors, for the most part any sound quality loss i get is either in the speakers on in the hifi itself. most interfearence that people talk about or that advertisers blab about can only actaully be seen on an occilascope after several hours of carefull setting up and comparison.

Bell wire? You're joking, right? There's a HUGE difference between wire types and yes, it CAN be heard - it isn't just on an oscilloscope as you claim. If you've never tried using high end interconnects on your system (or anything other than "bell wire"), how can you claim that you can't tell any difference???

BTW, I never claimed that the $3 interconnect wouldn't work - and that wasn't the question - the question was if there was a difference. There is. Folks don't have to believe it, but beliefs don't change the facts of the matter. Go audition some "bell wire" speaker or cheapie RCA/Toslink interconnects at a high end stereo store and then compare the sound on the same equipment in the same room by just changing the cables. THAT'S a true comparison.

To be honest, there's really no point in trying to discuss this further here. A question was posed. Both sides have spoken. Neither will convince the other. It is really better suited toward an audiophile site anyway. Seems like the decision has been made. "Discussion" is irrelevant now.

Easy now, i wasnt going on a major attack or anything, just saying MHO, yes i know bell wire is the lowest of the low and you can get better, and for perhaps a little more it may be a bit better, but never a huge ammount (i've used my big speakers on a mates setup with my amp, basically the only thing that made a real difference was the amp itself when we switched mine for his and he has some damn expensive cables), at anyway rate not such a huge amount that people should be having to choose from several different types of wires and some pretty huge costs.

As an additional, i've run speakers on over 50 meters of bell wire each, it sounded fine but blew the output stage on the amp after a few hours of this probably down to the resitive load of the wires so yeah it might have been worth getting slightly better wire for doing that. The thing that amuses me most is this drive for 'gold plated connectors' and 'gold wires', flip the lid off any amp and you'll see the circuitry is bog standard metal and in most cases emi if indicated will probably be from the amps own power supply or somthing very near the amp itself.

Anyway, most peeps should buy a decent set of speakers/amp before even thinking of getting 'decent' wires. I've got a 100watt 30 year old 'Sure' speaker here that for sound quality and volume would kick the stuffing out most new systems that sit there and boast 1000watts power, oh and thats with bell wire and an amp thats about 20 years old. (incidentally if anyone has any links etc on old sure speakers can they give me them, i've been trying to repair its twin for years and every replacement cone has pailed in comparison).

Lastly i just wanna say long live martin audio and yes i'm discusing here not arguing with ya and yes we are probably both unmoveable in our opinions

[DeathRay64]

Movieguy128, on Sep 11 2004, 06:37 AM, said:

This all applies in the world of computer networking as well - but then again, you probably wouldn't believe that cables there make a difference there either.  Again, far too much to discuss, but it's safe to say that there are MANY folks who disagree with your opinion - me just being one of them.  I don't plan on getting in to the same debate here that the DIY folks did over there as I doubt anything I (or any other person) says would convince you otherwise.

Do I detect a tinge of hostility here?

Yes. I can be quite stubborn at times but I certainly can be swayed by reasoned argument. If you would check my remarks I did say that analog cable quality can make a difference. Since computer network cables are generally analog there certainly could be a difference (a real difference). And if you had a fully digital network there would be some measureable difference in different cable quality. The question is, does it really matter?"

One thing that audiofiles don't seem to understand (or don't care to understand) is the law of diminishing returns. You can spend $3000 on a decent quality audio system or you could spend $30,000 on a similarly configured high end system and what do you get for your extra $27,000. Not much really; You might get the satisfaction of having the most expensive system on your street but in terms of sound you don't get much more if any discernable difference. An audiofile might say that he can hear a difference, but do you really expect him to be objective since he just blew $27,000?

Perfection is an unattainable goal and as you approach perfection every step you take toward perfection becomes more difficult and expensive. So an audiofile might spend thousands to save .001% difference in THD but he is insane because you can't hear it anyway and he probably would have been happy with the $3000 system if you just told him that it cost $30,000.

My goal is not to totally knock audiofiles, because I do agree that a quality audio system is going to sound better, but there is a reasonable limit.


We probably don't actually disagree that much. I do agree that there is a difference but that difference isn't even close enough for me to recommend that Jeh blow his wallet so that he can collect a few more bits that mean nothing in the long run.

[Super_Bob]

DR i think you are the middle ground between us and at the end of the day i think both of us would conceed along the same lines

[DeathRay64]

I might be between the extremes but I certainly am closer to you.

I've got a pair of Sansui 5-way speakers from the 70's that are by far my favorite speakers. Cloth surrounds, 15" woofer, 2 horn mids/1 cone and 2 horn tweeters/1cone and they are connected to very small gauge speaker wire. Not bell wire but a far cry from Monster cable and they kick butt.

[DeathRay64]

Brett, on Sep 11 2004, 04:59 PM, said:

That's my uninformed opinion

Brett

You must be kidding. I would consider that an extremely informed opinion. You must be an electrical engineer or something.

[Brett]

DeathRay64, on Sep 12 2004, 05:44 AM, said:

Brett, on Sep 11 2004, 04:59 PM, said:

That's my uninformed opinion

Brett

You must be kidding. I would consider that an extremely informed opinion. You must be an electrical engineer or something.

Yes I am a EE, but still wet behind the ears

Brett

[Movieguy128]

DR64-

Quote

If you would check my remarks I did say that analog cable quality can make a difference.

I did notice that in your comments. The problem is there are multiple people talking on this thread and someone else basically said wire quality mattered not (regarding sonic performance). Those comments were directed at him.

Quote

One thing that audiofiles don't seem to understand (or don't care to understand) is the law of diminishing returns.

I am familiar with that concept, it's the severity of the slope of diminishing returns where you and I disagree. $3 to $25 is one thing - $325 for a cable that carries the same data stream is another. Haven't ever seen a $300 Toslink cable, but I have seen $300 speaker wire (between amp and speakers). THAT to me was way up on the diminishing return slope in my book - spending $2.00/ft. is not.

Quote

You can spend $3000 on a decent quality audio system or you could spend $30,000 on a similarly configured high end system and what do you get for your extra $27,000. Not much really;

How many $30K systems have you personally listened to? My system didn't cost any where near $30K, but I have listened to multiple systems in that price range and YES, there IS a difference sonically. Is the $$$ worth it? It's one thing to say that "it's not worth it to me" - it may very well be not, but it's entirely different to say there is no difference in sound quality or that the difference is indistinguishable from a much cheaper system.

Can someone get away with spending much less $$$ on a piece of their overall system and get superior results? Sure - I think I've proved I believe that point by buying the Lumenlab guide and various parts from Brain when it comes to video. Sonically I proved that point by making my subwoofers myself for about 1/4 the price of a commercial equivalent. However, that is a DIY vs. commercial, not low cost commercial vs. high cost commercial. Can you get overpriced crappy commercial stuff? Heck yes - I have always hated Carver stuff for example. THX? That's a joke too - yes, it does specify certain characteristics that equipment that carries the label must have, but for the most part it is a marketing scheme to draw customers in. But to wholesale dismiss the sound quality of "audiophile" equipment? No - there IS an audible difference in sound.

This all boils down to three fundamental statements that I stand by - 1) Yes, wires (and optical cables) do indeed make a difference sonically in how sound is reproduced in a system; 2) even the "layman" can tell the difference under certain circumstances (my wife is a good example); and 3) Although there is certainly a curve associated with diminishing returns as it applies to sonic improvement, based on my hearing and personal taste, I find the curve sharpening at a much higher price point than you do.

If you want to have some fun sometime, go listen to some Watt Puppy speakers being driven by some good equipment. Go buy the "Out West" compilation CD (Grofe/Copeland) and listen to it on the WP setup. Even if you don't agree with the price point of the equipment, I think your perspective as to there being little difference between typical consumer grade equipment and "audiophile" equipment will change.

[jeh]

thanks all for replying. i did a little research (which i should have done in the first place) and decided that one quality factor could be that since the cables can fracture, maybe the cost can justify more protective sheathing. i think i might look for a $10 cable